Journals of the Senate
52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 85
Monday, October 20, 2003
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hubley, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Trenholme Counsell, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, *Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, *Comeau, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Gustafson, *Harb, Hays, *Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, *Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, *Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lawson, LeBreton, *Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, *Morin, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Trenholme Counsell, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
WRITTEN DECLARATION OF ROYAL ASSENT
At 2:03 p.m. the Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the following communication had been received:
RIDEAU HALL
October 20, 2003
Mr. Speaker:
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Governor General of Canada, signified royal assent by written declaration to the bill listed in the Schedule to this letter on the 20th day of October, 2003, at 9:14 a.m.
Yours sincerely,
Barbara Uteck
Secretary to the Governor General
The Honourable
The Speaker of the Senate
Ottawa
Schedule
Bill Assented To
Monday, October 20, 2003
An Act respecting the protection of the Antarctic Environment (Bill C-42, Chapter 20, 2003)
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Kenny moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence have power to sit at 5:00 p.m. today, Monday, October 20, 2003, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Gauthier presented petitions:
Of Residents of the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec with respect to declaring Ottawa officially bilingual.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That, pursuant to Rule 39, not more than a further six hours of debate be allocated for the consideration for third reading of Bill C-6, An Act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other Acts;
That when debate comes to an end or when the time provided for the debate has expired, the Speaker shall interrupt, if required, any proceedings then before the Senate and put forthwith and successively every question necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the said Bill; and
That any recorded vote or votes on the said question shall be taken in accordance with Rule 39(4).
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Austin, Banks, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Furey, Graham, Hubley, Kenny, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Maheu, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Pearson, Phalen, Poulin, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, Smith, Stollery, Trenholme Counsell, Wiebe—33
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Beaudoin, Carney, Cochrane, Cools, Corbin, Di Nino, Forrestall, Gill, Gustafson, Johnson, Kinsella, Lawson, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Meighen, Nolin, Oliver, Prud'homme, Robertson, Spivak, St. Germain, Watt—24
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Bacon, Ferretti Barth, Gauthier, Mahovlich
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the third reading of Bill C-6, An Act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other Acts, as amended,
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Gill, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that Bill C-6 be not now read the third time, but that it be read a third time this day six months hence.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Watt moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill, that the motion in amendment be amended by adding after the word "hence'' the following words:
"when a new government and a new prime minister and a new approach are in position.''
SPEAKER'S RULING
Earlier on, I volunteered some comments by reference to the rules not in request for a ruling but to assist Senator Watt in terms of the orderliness of what he had proposed. I have now been asked by Senator Watt to rule in a formal way.
I begin by referring to the rule I quoted earlier, which is rule 39(7). It is fairly clear. It states:
When an Order of the Day has been called, to which a specified period of time has been allocated for its consideration —
— which is exactly what we have here —
— the same shall not be adjourned and no amendment thereto, nor other motion, except that a certain Senator be now heard or do now speak, shall be received.
The latter words refer to another provision of the rules that allows the Senate as a whole to override a decision of the Speaker when he or she sees a senator. That part of the rule is not relevant. I am explaining it because it can be confusing the first time it is read.
The rule is clear. No amendment can be proposed.
There are also the texts that we often use in cases such as this. The sixth edition of Beauchesne's deals with hoist motions, which is what Senator Gill has proposed and which is the matter we are debating now and have to deal with first before we return to the main motion.
Senator Gill, seconded by Senator Watt, moved a motion that the bill not now be read a third time but that it be read a third time this day six months hence.
Paragraph 668 of Beauchesne's sixth edition states:
A traditional way of opposing the second reading of a bill is to move an amendment to the question that deletes all the words after the word "That'' and substitutes the following; "Bill C-..., An Act ..., be not now read a second time but that it be read a second time this day (six months) hence.''
Paragraph 669 states:
An established form of amendment such as the "six months'' formula, used to obtain the rejection of a bill, is not capable of amendment.
Thus, both our rules and the general practice are clear that this amendment of Senator Gill's, seconded by Senator Watt, is not capable of amendment. I think the reasoning would be fairly clear: In effect, it kills the bill. To revert to a motion that would end deliberation on the bill is not consistent with what is before the chamber at this time..
Therefore, I rule that the motion is not in order.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the third reading of Bill C-6, An Act to establish the Canadian Centre for the Independent Resolution of First Nations Specific Claims to provide for the filing, negotiation and resolution of specific claims and to make related amendments to other Acts, as amended,
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Gill, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that Bill C-6 be not now read the third time, but that it be read a third time this day six months hence.
After debate,
The question was put on the motion in amendment.
Pursuant to Rule 67(2), a standing vote was deferred until 5:30 p.m. tomorrow, with the bells to sound at 5:15 p.m. for fifteen minutes.
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-37, An Act to amend the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Harb, for the third reading of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts,
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 12, on page 126, by replacing lines 8 to 12 with the following:
"30. (1) Appointments by the Commission to or from within the public service shall be free from political influence and shall be made on the basis of merit by competition or by such other process of personnel selection designed to establish the relative merit of candidates as the Commission considers is in the best interests of the public service.
(1.1) Despite subsection (1), an appointment may be made on the basis of individual merit in the circumstances prescribed by the regulations of the Commission.
(2) An appointment is made on the basis of individual'',
And on the subamendment of the Honourable Senator Di Nino, seconded by the Honourable Senator Nolin, that the motion in amendment be amended
(a) by replacing the words "on page 126, by replacing lines 8 to 12'' with the following:
"(a) on page 126, by replacing lines 8 to 11'';
(b) by adding after the words "free from political influence'' the following:
"and bureaucratic patronage''; and
(c) by replacing the words "of the Commission. (2) An appointment is made on the basis of individual'' with the following:
"of the Commission.''; and
(b) on page 127, by adding after line 9 the following:
"(3) The qualifications referred to in paragraph 30(2)(a) and subparagraph 30(2)(b)(i), and any qualification standards referred to in subsection (1), that are established for an appointment in respect of a particular position or class of positions shall apply to future appointments in respect of that position or class of positions, unless any change established by the deputy head or employer to the qualifications or qualification standards, as the case may be, is approved by the Public Service Commission.''.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Nolin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that further debate on the subamendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 4 to 6 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
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Ordered, That all remaining Orders be postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Copy of Regulations Amending the United Nations Liberia Regulations (SOR/2003-1478), pursuant to the United Nations Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. U-2, sbs. 4(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-738.
Report on the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Lobbyists Registration Act, S.C. 1995, c. 12, s. 10.6.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-739.
Report on the administration of the Lobbyists Registration Act for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 44 (4th Supp.), sbs. 11(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-740.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 8:37 p.m. the Senate was continued until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The name of the Honourable Senator Stratton substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Forrestall (October 14).
The name of the Honourable Senator Christensen substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Hubley (October 16).
Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce
The name of the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Harb (October 16).